PS5将会向下兼容PS4?SIEA的新专利申请曝光

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用新机器玩上一代游戏感觉就是闲得蛋痛，，

devilmaycry200

phx496 发表于 2018-3-11 10:49
微软的官方答复里明确说明X1兼容360的原理就是模拟360系统环境，任何模拟程序都需要编译，不是编译了就等 ...

微软官方说明并没有体现具体细节，当然我说的也不一定对，首先通过编译实现一键移植也可以称作模拟或兼容，所谓编译就是把源代码翻译成各个不同硬件的二进制代码，一旦涉及到编译那就绝对不是通常意义的“模拟”，当然广义上用模拟这个词也没毛病。另外考虑到x1的硬件性能还有360的硬件架构，纯模拟绝对是不可能的，很多游戏甚至比原版还有提升。最后关于怎么实现的目前没有一个准确的说法，但是之前微软提出过Windows兼容安卓和ios应用，我觉得x1所谓的模拟方式应该和这个差不多


那么Windows 10是如何实现对于Android和iOS的“兼容”的呢？
据ZDNet报道，在手机版Windows 10中，微软将为系统添加一个软件层，使AOSP(Android开放源代码项目)作为一个子系统运行——与POSIX(可移植操作系统接口)作为子系统在Windows上的运行相似。对于Android开发者来说，他们能够以APK格式向微软提交使用Java或C++语言编写的应用，使其在Windows 10手机上运行。
此外，微软还开发了Objective-C的编译器，以便iOS开发者可以利用微软的编译器重新编译应用，使之能在Windows 10手机上运行。

phx496

devilmaycry200 发表于 2018-3-11 11:39
微软官方说明并没有体现具体细节，当然我说的也不一定对，首先通过编译实现一键移植也可以称作模拟或兼容 ...

"The way we talk about it offhand is that effectively we try to make sure that the game never knows that it's not running on an actual 360 console, and so whatever value the game presents, we return the value that it expects to get from the 360 hardware and we just do all that in software," Stillwell continues. "So, there's a multiple playthrough session where we have an army of over 100 testers who go through, collect thousands of hours of video data and then from there we'll get back data that lets us tune, and so the emulator gets a little bit more robust every cycle that we go through with game releases."

The ambition in adapting code designed for a tri-core PowerPC CPU running at 3.2GHz on low-power, low-frequency x86 ** is remarkable. In theory, the Xbox 360's six hardware threads could be mapped to specific ** in Xbox One, but issues cropped up as the team took on more challenging games.

"What we found was it's not just the threads, the different **. In fact, the Xbox One has a thread scheduler - it's similar to Windows in that it apportions based on need whereas the 360 was locked, it was very consistent," Stillwell explains. "And what we found happening was that when we used the Xbox One thread scheduler, we had a whole bunch of issues occur, so we actually rewrote our own thread scheduler... Whenever you boot up that emulator layer so that that logo pops up for the 360, we're taking over thread scheduling from the Xbox One and locking it down to the 360 timing, so that we don't have to deal with the translation across the two or worry about thread management in the Xbox One directly."

But fundamentally, Xbox 360 back-compat works on the principle of an emulation layer. There is some hardware assistance and - yes - some 'secret sauce' (Microsoft didn't want to be drawn on how the emulator supports Xbox 360's VMX128 vector units, for example), but the team is now at the point now where everything an Xbox 360 can do, its emulator can mirror in software. And that's impressive - by the end of the 360 era, developers had leeway to bypass the DirectX API and address the GPU more directly, potentially making transcompilation of code more challenging. Stillwell confirms that this isn't a problem for the emulation layer and in fact, the only thing that isn't supported is XNA.

I mean, I'll never say never because no matter what we think is the way people will write games, someone will write games in a way that no-one ever thought of doing before," he adds. "We've run into a few of those but in general we had some games early on that we thought would never work that we now know work."And then there are the games that previously worked, but didn't work very well. Our early tests of Xbox 360 titles running on Xbox One threw up a host of issues - specifically, areas where the emulator's enforced v-sync could see games that ran at 30fps drop down to 20fps. And then there was Halo Reach, a flagship title of crucial importance to the backwards compatibility programme that just didn't come up to the required standard. It proved to be the catalyst that saw Microsoft revisit its testing procedures, leading to existing back-compat titles being revamped with improved performance.

"Yeah, we absolutely did [that] and take some credit for it, actually. It was the review of Reach that sort of put us on the spot. Basically, what happened when we first started doing these games, we got things to run and because we were able to emulate the 360 on the One, we were quite pleased with ourselves and so we started pushing out games and a lot of our testing was subjective," Stillwell explains.

这还没谈具体细节？ 你想让微软把源代码都告诉你才叫细节？

phx496

devilmaycry200 发表于 2018-3-11 11:39
微软官方说明并没有体现具体细节，当然我说的也不一定对，首先通过编译实现一键移植也可以称作模拟或兼容 ...

“纯模拟绝对是不可能的，很多游戏甚至比原版还有提升。最后关于怎么实现的目前没有一个准确的说法”
对于你这个问题微软已经说的够透彻了，微软没改变360游戏代码，至于为什么增强，因为X1的GPU性能比360强，360当初是受性能限制，
你与其靠自己去猜测，不如认真读一遍这篇文章，X1模拟360不是那么容易做到的，微软也是付出了大量人力，物力去搞这个东西


There are certain principles that remain in place with all back-compat titles. So for example, Microsoft never actually changes a single line of game code, even in scenarios that suggest the opposite. For example, Halo 3's frame-pacing issues on Xbox 360 are fixed on Xbox One - but that's all down to additional GPU power, where the original code was starting to hit limits on 360 hardware. The extra overhead offered by Xbox One simply fixes that issue. Any and all tweaks and improvements are carried out at the emulator layer, though with the X-enhanced titles, game-specific changes are implemented. The results can be extraordinary. Fallout 3 and Halo 3 deliver a huge increase in detail, not just in terms of pixel-count but also from what look like better assets, or even improved LODs. The comparison shots here speak for themselves.

devilmaycry200

phx496 发表于 2018-3-11 11:44
"The way we talk about it offhand is that effectively we try to make sure that the game never know ...

首先我们平时所说的模拟器是游戏二进制代码不变模拟器实时把其他硬件的二进制代码翻译成自己硬件所能识别的，这种方式效率很低，硬件必须足够强大才行。另外一种就是预先使用工具把代码翻译好。而你发的并没有体现是哪一种，按照理论常识来说第二种更有可能，x1硬件还没有强大到实时编译。
另外你可以搜一下微软提出的Project Islandwood相关细节

phx496

devilmaycry200 发表于 2018-3-11 11:55
首先我们平时所说的模拟器是游戏二进制代码不变模拟器实时把其他硬件的二进制代码翻译成自己硬件所能识别 ...

X1有类似windows的线程调度器可以分配，所以为了模拟360微软重写了线程调度器，锁定在了360的时序，模拟程序可以软件镜像，微软在360时期结束之后就可以实现绕过DirectX API赖直接解决GPU问题，代价就是编译代码费时费力，微软本身就搞过虚拟机，对于这类工作经验丰富，虽然X1的GPU性能不怎么样，但是跟360相比也是强的多了，不要以为微软很容易就搞定了X1兼容360的工作，也不要拿windows平台的模拟器跟X1兼容360比，在开发投入和人力上就有天壤之别

另外你可以思考一个问题，把XONE平台的游戏移植到PC windows平台，那你用PC玩游戏的时候需要windows给你虚拟一个XONE的运行环境吗？ 显然不需要，因为移植过后的游戏已经是windows环境的游戏。
那回过头来，如果X1兼容360的游戏是移植的，X1还用的着模拟360硬件环境去运行游戏吗？微软在模拟360上花了大量人力，物力，闲的蛋疼？

直江兼続

ps5可能不兼容  但是ps5 pro一定会兼容吧

devilmaycry200

phx496 发表于 2018-3-11 12:15
X1有类似windows的线程调度器可以分配，所以为了模拟360微软重写了线程调度器，锁定在了360的时序，模拟 ...

所以说这是介于两者之间并不是纯模拟，当然应该也不是纯移植，微软应该不可能拿到第三方软件厂商的源代码。微软的实现方式就是预先把二进制代码编译好而不是交给x1去实时编译。你说微软搞过虚拟机，玩过虚拟机的都知道虚拟机的效率和对硬件的高要求

寂静之声

这么说来PS5应该会有兼容功能了吧？

finalfantasy000

.麥屶劳. 发表于 2018-3-10 05:31
下向兼容又没坏 为什么那么多人拒绝

索索的逻辑是微软有的东西都要抵制。

微软没有的都是黑科技

微软有我们没有的都是可有可无。

微软有我们也有的，微软都是follow.